A different kind of reasoning

yes..time to get serious about history...
here's a start to your historical research

http://johndickson.org/books

http://johndickson.org/files/thechristfiles_intro.pdf

http://johndickson.org/files/christfiles_chap5.pdf

http://www.biblehistory.net/

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibarch.htm

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4466067/k.1914/Reasons_to_Believe_Apologetics.htm

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4955427/k.3D58/Archaeology_and_the_Old_Testament.htm

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4955431/k.3C35/Archaeology_and_the_New_Testament.htm


Books


How now shall we live - Charles Colson
(issues of evolution, hope, suffering, with scientific studies for support)

The Christ files - John Dickson

The Case for Christ - Lee Stobel

More than a carpenter - Josh McDowell

The new evidence that demands a verdict - Josh McDowell

Faith's Reasons for Believing - Robert L. Reymond

What's so amazing about grace? - Philip Yancey

The Reason for God - Timothy Keller





Revelation is one of those books which isn't easy to understand - hence the different intepretations
which is why it's good to discuss it so you dont get stuck with one view!

anyway... here's a start

Structure of Revelation
Chapters 1-3
Letters to 7 churches
Chapters 5-11
A quick overview from beginning to end
Chapters 12-22
A more detailed view from beginning to end

Chapters 5 – 9 Before the judgement (of Babylon)
Overview of world up to the evil empire where all those who have not been killed are idol worshippers and sorcerers
(the evil empire of ancient Babylon?)
4 seals – conditions of the sinful world
5th seal – plead for judgment by the slain righteous
6th seal – Recognition of God’s wrath by the evil world
144,000 of Israel 12 tribes protected – Israel in Egypt?
The uncountable righteous souls who are saved survivors of persecution - End of time?
7th seal – 6 trumpets of destruction but the survivors are devil worshippers
(led astray by Nimrod? The spreading of continents in earthquake? The judgement of Babylon?)

Chapters 10 – 11 Before the judgment at the end of time
A gap in prophesy (time gap?)
Two witnesses will prophesy. Rise to heaven after death. Earthquake but God is praised.
(a further gap of 1000 years mentioned later?)
7th trumpet – final judgement of the dead

Chapters 12 -19 Judgement on the Beast and the False prophet
Satan and demons banished to earth (Satan was on earth in genesis)
Woman gives birth to Jesus (Eve brought out of the Garden of Eden?)
Literal flood (Noah’s time), or figurative flood of sin (taken away by Jesus’ death)
The Beast and the false messiah (death and temporary resurrection to deceive people)
Killing God’s people and deceiving everyone by sorcery and magic idols
666 (In Greek, Nimrod – Janus, Serpent – Tertian)
144,000 righteous redeemed from spiritual death (not the 144,000 mentioned before?)
3 angels announce fall of Babylon and its destruction because all peoples are drunk with her lust
Harvest of the earth - the 144,000?
Winepress of God’s wrath on earth
7 plagues, 7 bowls of God’s wrath on Babylon in a day
The Fall of (ancient) Babylon in the worst earthquake and giant stone thrown into the sea
Split of city (continents?) disappearance of islands and mountains and destruction of cities
Hail plague
Babylon the deceiver of the world by false magic (the rise of ancient religions?)
White horse throws beast and false prophet into the lake of fire (a massive battle after the fall)

Chapters 20 – 22 Judgement on Satan and the dead (final judgement)
(a possible gap in time after the destruction of Babylon, the beast and false prophet are defeated but Satan still remains, and the coming of the true Messiah on earth)
Thousand years of Satan unable to deceive the nations and first rising of saints with Christ
Defeat of Satan who is also thrown into the lake of fire
The final judgement of the dead
New heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem




A Revelation – Continental drift, the greatest natural disaster? Nathaniel 13/10/09


Assuming the earth was one land mass when created, that is, all the continents were combined at the start of creation, then at some point there would be the separation of continents. It would appear easier for humans to fulfil God’s original command to multiply and take care of the whole world and the animals that live on it if the lands were not physically separated by water as they are today. I’m sure today there are still undiscovered tribes in jungles or forests that are out of touch with ‘civilisation’.


But from the bible account, it makes it clear that all peoples were descendants of Noah, as the flood covered the whole earth, and the only people that survived were the ones on the ship – Noah and his family. And according to the bible all nations were descendants of Noah. Sure it does give an account of all the different names of civilisations that were formed, but it doesn’t really say how the people spread over all the earth until the story of the Tower of Babylon(Greek) or Babel(Hebrew). From Genesis, it says God confused the language, and that was enough for the people to spread all over the earth. But was it that simple?


I would say no. Is there any reason for them to stop building the tower simply because they lost their language? Can’t they learn each other’s language? And would people just start wandering off into distant unknown lands? It would be more reasonable to say that the people were separated as a result of a great natural disaster which caused the destruction of the city and the lands to separate physically putting the many established nations after Noah out of reach with each other as the continents drifted apart.


We are not told what the city was like, only that God saw that they had they had the potential to do whatever they wanted. They had one language, and were united in building a great city and a tower that could reach the heavens. Now this is completely against God’s command to spread over the earth, so we can assume this empire was doing evil in the eyes of God. And who was the leader of this great city? In previous verses, there is mention of Nimrod, who was considered to be the first great conqueror. The bible doesn’t mention much about Nimrod apart from being the founder of Babel or Babylon, and conqueror of Assyria.


If the world was one land mass and all the peoples were descendants of Noah, it would be fair to say that Nimrod at the time was in control of the greatest empire on earth. And surely the greatest city would be the one which had the tower of Babel, and all the nations of the earth which existed then would know about it; even more likely if the continents had not been separated yet. Non-biblical sources might shed more light on the situation.


From different ancient texts, Nimrod was known to be tyrant, a sorcerer, and killer of men. He forced people to worship idols, and he believed that he was the Messiah. Nimrod was indeed a powerful ruler in the ancient world. In Revelation, it mentions the fall of Babylon, and at first inspection, the city with the tower of Babylon fits in with the description of an ancient civilisation which was known to all the nations of the earth. And like the one in Genesis, it was self-indulgent and in rebellion against God’s commands. Part of Revelation tells of the destruction of Babylon though it is necessary to put any complete global destruction by an act of God into context.


There have only been two acts of destruction which have impacted the whole world according to the bible. One is the flood where the people survived on Noah’s ark and the other is the apocalypse mentioned in Revelation. Notice that God flooded the whole earth because the people on the earth had turned evil. He wanted to start again through Noah and his family. But after this it moves on to the character of Abraham and it says all nations will be blessed through him. This implies that God is starting again from Abraham because the people of the earth have once again turned away from him. I would say that between the time of Noah and Abraham, something catastrophic would have happened in order for Abraham to be the sole ancestor of those who have faith in God. Noah’s descendants had turned away from God and whether this was due to the evil acts of Nimrod this remains to be examined.


If Nimrod was so evil in leading people astray, surely there must be some historical record, and an account of God’s judgement on his empire. This is why I say the account in Genesis is unusually brief. However, the fall of Babylon as recorded in Revelation is very detailed and surprisingly fits the view of Babylon as an ancient world power. Furthermore it mentions an earthquake so powerful that the earth has never seen before as it describes islands fleeing away as well as mountains. This may explain the start of continental drift. It definitely would have to be a large earthquake to initiate the splitting of continents. It also mentions how the nations were deceived by acts of sorcery. Obviously the descriptions on evil animal beast by the power of the devil and a false prophet match the criteria for Nimrod as a sorcerer and a false prophet. Now the number of 666 is meant to identify both the beast and a man. In Greek, Nimrod adopted the name Janus, and the word Teitan represents a serpent; both add up to the number which is associated with the devil. Also note the sequence of events which mentioned an attempted flood by Satan to wash away the woman. Taking that literally would imply the flood of Noah, while figuratively speaking it could represent sin and all of it being taken away by Jesus’ death on the cross.


From this account in Revelation, one could say that all the ancient religions came from the supernatural acts of Nimrod. The Egyptians claim for an afterlife lie with Osiris, who was claimed to have defeated death once. This matches the account for a mortal wounding of the beast but its recovery caused people to follow the beast. Surely enough it wasn’t unstoppable. As the Jews were protected from the plagues of Egypt so too could the seals for the 144,000 represent protection for those on earth during the plagues of Babylon. In this case it may be protection of a spiritual death rather than a physical one. The seven plagues and seven bowls of God’s wrath seem to apply exclusively to the city of ancient city of Babylon in a single day. Some of the trumpets at first hand appear similar to the plagues of Egypt, but may apply to Nimrod’s acts of sorcery. Although one has to take in to account the destruction of the Garden of Eden by fire as a possibility. Clearly Eden was not a small place, if indeed it had room for all the species of animals including dinosaurs. I’d like to think of it as an ideal Jurassic Park where the animals ate plants and humans ate fruit all living in harmony with a perfect relationship with its Creator. A single act of obedience caused guilt, and gave way to a decaying paradise as a result of the creation’s lack of trust in the Creator to maintain life and order. A creator cannot fully fix the creation while the creation doesn’t allow it to in the first place. There is a lack of trust which prevents the creator from being able to immediately fix the problem, but that’s even if the creator wants to fix it in the first place.


Science says that hope will give person strength and perseverance through suffering. What if hope in the afterlife was the ultimate hope? Would it give a person endurance over all forms of suffering if they knew that death was not the end? Could the ‘survival of the fittest’ apply to Christianity, where the hope is in eternal life, and Jesus tells Christians to love their enemies so that others too might know this same hope. Christians do not feel they die in vain, as the ultimate authority for judgement lies with God after death. We all know that love can change lives. So did Jesus really rise from the dead? Did he really sound like and acted like he had authority from God? Will the problem be finally fully fixed not on earth but after life on earth?


This is not a threat. It’s only a threat when you know you are in danger. You only know either when you die or if Jesus comes back and by then it’s too late. True Christians will only show love to guide you to look for the truth. People always have a choice to believe as long as there are people proclaiming the truth. Who says that they won’t reach those who are lost? If all people descended from Noah then everyone had a chance. But choices have consequences, impacting the choices of future generations, but since people are never sure of the outcome of life-changing decisions, they always have the perception of choice. And with choice there is more than one outcome, and inevitably some people will sadly make the wrong choice even though they heard the truth. As long as the truth exists, in the past or in the present, there is always a chance to make that choice. In the Old Testament people put their faith in God and in His sending of a Messiah to save the word. Christians today put their faith in Jesus and what he did. All are saved through faith alone. All you can do is to examine for yourself whether historical documents support the bible but more importantly the existence of Jesus and what He did on earth.